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I hope this gets everyone's attention, and I don't give a rip if anyone replies or not. I am posting this separately from the previous discussions on here that have deteriorated into the most vile insulting and mudslinging bunch of crap I have ever seen in my life.

 

It is distressing to me that massage therapists, researchers in the field, and anyone else associated with our profession in any way stoop to this kind of behavior. Not only is it not a productive discussion, it is starting to sound like a bunch of politicians on tv with their insulting of each other's credentials, standards, and abilities.

 

I am not interested in shame and blame, so who started it and who said what is irrelevant. I urge you all to remember that we are ALL in this profession because we have a desire to help people through the awesome power of touch, and that is what it is about.

 

We don't have to agree. We can all agree to disagree. The personal attacks, the character attacks, the arguing over which country does it better, is ridiculous, petty, and childish. This is not the first time this has happened. It is the main reason I avoid this site most of the time.

 

I am no better, or no worse than anyone else, and everybody is entitled to an opinion. That's what forums are meant for, so that people with differing opinions have a place to discuss those, but so much of what has gone on here is not a civil discussion. When I see people that I know to be hard-working, caring people, and people that I know to be brilliant minds and hard-working as well get into these mudslinging insulting arguments on here, I personally find that to be a bad reflection of what we are supposed to be about.

 

I don't have to be bad in order for you to be good. You don't have to be a failure just so someone else can be a success. One country who does things differently is not better or worse, they are just different. People get caught up in national pride, and that's okay, but it does not have to deteriorate into what some of these discussions have deteriorated into. Someone makes a comment, someone takes it the wrong way, or out of context, and it just goes downhill from there.

 

When you're writing like this, you can't hear people's tone of voice, you can't see their body language, and what might be civil if we were all in a room together comes off as a bunch of superior b*******, and one's just as guilty as the other. When anyone has anything intelligent to say, someone else seizes upon that and uses it as an excuse for the next round of arguing.

 

I wish everyone of you peace and prosperity, regardless of where you are from, what you do, or how you do it. We are all equal by virtue of the fact that we are all human and it's too bad that people are fighting like a pack of junkyard dogs instead of having a civil disagreement. I can't participate in it and I won't.

 

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Vlad,


What about chi energy meridians?  I'm sure many MTs would consider them irrational as well.  I think it's fascinating that so many healers utilize these irrational systems to good effect.  We don't understand the mechanism of action of the placebo effect, but it's certainly useful.


Alexei

Vlad is now roadkill said:

Yeah, Mike, the pyramid woman no doubt loves her job.  I'm only using her as one example of what we've to put up with. 

My main point isn't her - it's the fact that she's taught it.  Is it right to be taught something that has zero evidence to support it? 

There's another point that I wanted to make with that.  Each massage therapist is like a pixel in the picture of massage therapy that we present to the public.  Every claim that each therapist makes is a part of that picture.  If you get enough pixels that are *just not right* in the claims they're making, that picture isn't good.   Each of us is affected by the claims that all the rest of us make.  That's the thing.  I don't think most therapists think of it that way because there's a tendency for us all to be absorbed in our own wee practices, but it matters. 

 

As for whether the rational thinkers are the minority, I wonder if this whole site is really a mirror for the profession in the US.  If that's the case, then we are in the minority.  But that might be me not thinking right. 

I dunno.

OK - I'm off again.

 

 

 

 

Posting a public comment "So, will you take up that invitation to visit the World Massage Festival? ;-)  Mike Hinkle never did answer Susan Chapelle's question of whether there was going to be a ferris wheel at the festival!" after all this messy discussion does not create a climate of cooperation or trust, is that right Matthew? 

I happen to like ferris wheels Emmanuel, the tend to give perspective on the world and move at a calming pace.

If my clumsy attempts at humour offend you Emmanuel, my full apology. 

I'll let that comment of comparing me to a racist slide because, even though I haven't met you Emmanuel, I sure you are an intelligent, compassionate guy if your are involved in massage and teaching I couldn't imagine you'd actually say something like that to me face-to-face.

 

What about chi energy meridians?  I'm sure many MTs would consider them irrational as well.  I think it's fascinating that so many healers utilize these irrational systems to good effect.  We don't understand the mechanism of action of the placebo effect, but it's certainly useful.


 

Alexei - it's not *taught* as if it's a placebo though, is it?  And it's not going to be sold as if it's a placebo.  It's not even taught as if it's a "well, this is what we've got here - belief based, not much to back it up, and in fact, trials have shown it to have little evidence for having any therapeutic benefit at all." 

Here's the other thing Is the word "placebo" in most therapist's vocabulary?  Is it brought up in their training?  Are they tested on whether they know what is meant by the placebo effect in basic training so that they can say "is modality x a placebo or is there any therapeutic effect to it" and can they then go and come to their own conclusions on it? Do they know how it's controlled for in research?  If you look at some of the massage magazines, they've got "Hey lookee at this abstract of this study and that in that modality and this - aint' it great".  And therapists are looking at abstracts, not knowing how to look at them critically and buying into it.  I've come to think of part of my basic training (not all of it - part of it) as being mushroom-like.  I was pretty much kept in the dark and fed dung.  I'm still fed dung in the advertising for all the new hip'n'cool modalities that there's a spread on in the magazines (although I have to say that there is also some good stuff in the mags too, sometimes, and Massage Today is a pretty good wee publication).

Ignorance of such things are not good.  In fact, it's harmful.  The whole "lookee here, it works" thing can make people think something does work if they don't know how to look at it.  (for example - "we've got lots of case studies that show modality x works".  Uncool).

 

If you want to go into a "is selling a placebo ethical" debate, man, I can't do it.  Someone else might want to take you up on it since I'm still trying to figure where I'm at with the whole placebo *thing*.  I'm still learning about it, and reading about it and I don't feel well enough informed to have a well thought out opinion on it. 

Claims matter though.  Questioning of claims and their validity should happen all over - that's not just a *in our profession* thing - that's a *generally, in society* thing. 

 

 


The mechanism of Qi is well understood throughout Asia. It is the basis of all the martial arts and Chinese Medicine. In China many case studies are recorded of Qi Medicine. Medical Qi Gong is an energetic healing tradition in China much older than the Japanese style Reiki.

It has been validated in Asian Medicine from several countries. In traditional Asian Bodywork it is inseperable from the physical aspect of bodywork.

 

Believe or don't believe it won't change the work many of us do. As the saying goes, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating".

I see your point and understand your paradox but it comes with every minority. It's always harder to sway opinion and action if you are not in the majority.

And I think you are close with your assesment of this site. Most seem fairly liberal to allow others to do their thing. They don't ask others to go against whatever they are doing or believe in, because they do not understand it.

 

More people are asking for more evidence, to base all their practices on. They have been hollering this for years. Glad to see websites growing with this information.

 

But we still need to honor and cherish all those loving, working in and promoting the field of Massage Therapy.

 

 

 

 

Vlad is now roadkill said:

Yeah, Mike, the pyramid woman no doubt loves her job.  I'm only using her as one example of what we've to put up with. 

My main point isn't her - it's the fact that she's taught it.  Is it right to be taught something that has zero evidence to support it? 

There's another point that I wanted to make with that.  Each massage therapist is like a pixel in the picture of massage therapy that we present to the public.  Every claim that each therapist makes is a part of that picture.  If you get enough pixels that are *just not right* in the claims they're making, that picture isn't good.   Each of us is affected by the claims that all the rest of us make.  That's the thing.  I don't think most therapists think of it that way because there's a tendency for us all to be absorbed in our own wee practices, but it matters. 

 

As for whether the rational thinkers are the minority, I wonder if this whole site is really a mirror for the profession in the US.  If that's the case, then we are in the minority.  But that might be me not thinking right. 

I dunno.

OK - I'm off again.

 

 

 

 

Daniel,

If we're not educated on how to objectively appraise a claim or how to employ critical thinking skills in our education, then people will continue to believe whatever is taught to us, and tradition will over-ride everything else, including scientific investigation.

If we're not taught to critically appraise a claim, it's not just an injustice to the therapists, it's an injustice to the public that we serve. 

If you're saying that the "validation" is through some number of case studies on chi-related modalities or unpublished work, then of course, that's up to you.  It's up to everyone to choose. And, in fact, I'll say that I'm ignorant on that one since I haven't looked at the research behind it in much detail.   What's happening at the minute is that people are choosing without being equipped with the skills to appraise claims well. 

And again, that isn't just a *in our profession* thing - unsubstantiated claims can be sold on to the public because Joe Public is not questioning the claims either.  That doesn't make it *right* though, really does it? 

Well, I'm off here again.  And again.

No, really.  I'm off again.

Really.   (For those who don't know, the "Vlad is now roadkill" name is because I'd killed my presence on this board last summer.  This is Vlad's wee ghost - he's off again.  **POOF**).

*nod*  The bit about the pressure/meridian points regarding pregnancy is a perfect example.  M&BP magazine wrote a fairly in-depth article about it in the last year, but I know soooo many MTs who are terrified of doing prenatal work because they've been sold the "don't touch here" line.  This not only hurts our profession, but it hurts the public as well.

 

E.


Vlad is now roadkill said:

Daniel,

If we're not educated on how to objectively appraise a claim or how to employ critical thinking skills in our education, then people will continue to believe whatever is taught to us, and tradition will over-ride everything else, including scientific investigation.

If we're not taught to critically appraise a claim, it's not just an injustice to the therapists, it's an injustice to the public that we serve. 

If you're saying that the "validation" is through some number of case studies on chi-related modalities or unpublished work, then of course, that's up to you.  It's up to everyone to choose. And, in fact, I'll say that I'm ignorant on that one since I haven't looked at the research behind it in much detail.   What's happening at the minute is that people are choosing without being equipped with the skills to appraise claims well. 

And again, that isn't just a *in our profession* thing - unsubstantiated claims can be sold on to the public because Joe Public is not questioning the claims either.  That doesn't make it *right* though, really does it? 

Well, I'm off here again.  And again.

No, really.  I'm off again.

Really.   (For those who don't know, the "Vlad is now roadkill" name is because I'd killed my presence on this board last summer.  This is Vlad's wee ghost - he's off again.  **POOF**).

Erica does make a good point, I had lots of therapists start to get nervous when told the lady was pregnant. And she cited an article to help, but what if they weren't ABMP (180,000) to get that issue and they dont surf very much to know about the fantastic digital versions, (you guys gotta go see um on site here... great new technology).

 

Anyways, lots of folks aren't getting this vital info, but it's only been out a year. It will take some time for things to get around.

 

So many schools are teaching wrong information. Research will always need to be debated and peer reviewed for accuracy. There need to be multi sources to debate all this research. After agreements are met, the credentialed results could be sent to schools.

 

EBP is just getting going. I hope it does not become a wedge, but rather helps inform therapists and keep all schools updated on current findings. But research should take place for all, if all are funding the research.

 

Erica Olson said:

*nod*  The bit about the pressure/meridian points regarding pregnancy is a perfect example.  M&BP magazine wrote a fairly in-depth article about it in the last year, but I know soooo many MTs who are terrified of doing prenatal work because they've been sold the "don't touch here" line.  This not only hurts our profession, but it hurts the public as well.

 

E.


Vlad is now roadkill said:

Daniel,

If we're not educated on how to objectively appraise a claim or how to employ critical thinking skills in our education, then people will continue to believe whatever is taught to us, and tradition will over-ride everything else, including scientific investigation.

If we're not taught to critically appraise a claim, it's not just an injustice to the therapists, it's an injustice to the public that we serve. 

If you're saying that the "validation" is through some number of case studies on chi-related modalities or unpublished work, then of course, that's up to you.  It's up to everyone to choose. And, in fact, I'll say that I'm ignorant on that one since I haven't looked at the research behind it in much detail.   What's happening at the minute is that people are choosing without being equipped with the skills to appraise claims well. 

And again, that isn't just a *in our profession* thing - unsubstantiated claims can be sold on to the public because Joe Public is not questioning the claims either.  That doesn't make it *right* though, really does it? 

Well, I'm off here again.  And again.

No, really.  I'm off again.

Really.   (For those who don't know, the "Vlad is now roadkill" name is because I'd killed my presence on this board last summer.  This is Vlad's wee ghost - he's off again.  **POOF**).

The power of placebo is one the most potent tools in massage.  I imagine for those who believe that they will have a better outcome if a copper pyramid is under the table of their practitioner they will indeed have a better massage outcome.   I mean science is great and I appreciate people like Christopher quantifying and observing the effects of soft tissue manipulation, but for heaven's sake we live in a society where the majority of the population organize their lives around a being that cannot in any way, shape, or form be scientifically proven to exist.  And many think that there are angels amongst us doing whatever angels do.  So how is it our place to judge someone for taking comfort in a copper pyramid?  To me the rational that a copper pyramid might possess healing powers makes a lot more sense than the notion of a god doing whatever a god(s) does. . . just saying.  But with that said I am big fan of letting the market decide what works in massage and I generally do not choose the therapists with the nifty pyramids to spend my money with.  But that is just my vote.
How did this thread get hijacked? Perhaps a new one can be started to discuss the place of traditional medicine and current scientific method.
Good point Ezekiel, is pyramid power different from crucifix power?
Daniel-I think it got hijacked shortly after the regurgitated comments about therapists in the South, woo woo's etc. call it a mercy hijacking.
Alexei-I don't want to disabuse anyone of their belief system but in my heart of hearts I always hope that someone who tries to take down Qi lines, pyramids or clearing the energy is a skeptic through and through and an avowed Atheist because otherwise it is, to paraphrase what the Jewish Carpenter said, "A case of casting the first stone." And I don't think He would approve.

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