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I can't believe it?
I was wondering if I should even comment about this.. But I will.. Because I'm really bothered by it..And I run into similar situations often enough.. My last client yesterday. She was Im guessing about fifty years old...She was very depressed looking.. Tired looking...She told me she had fibromyalgia(how do you spell it?) . I asked her were she hurt... She said both her arms are constantly aching. And her back hurts...She made it clear that her arms were her biggest problem.. She told me that she has had six months of deep tissue massage one to two times a week and still not better..Talking to her further, she told me that she feels worse after the massages, and that they are so painful...She just wants to relax today...Someone gave her a gift certificate for a massage at the spa where I work... I did a complete trigger point scan..Found a trigger point in her left SI joint...a left side L4 spinal erector TP.. A really bad painful one in her Latissimus dorsi (edge of shoulder blade) on her left...One in her infraspinatus (another bad one)on her left. And a really bad( when I say bad, I mean sore as hell) supraspinatus TP on her right side. Also a right side pectoralis TP.. She told me nobody palpated those Latissimus, infraspinatus or supraspinatus TPs before? Long story short...I eliminated those trigger points..Wasnt painful either...She was unbelievably happy after her hour session yesterday. She couldnt believe her arms didnt hurt...... She rescheduled for another massage in four days...I will recheck her ..Im sure some of those TPs will come back..But her problem is over with...Another session or two will be about it.. Im just shocked.. All she was told by the docs was that she had fibromylagia or however you spell it, and all this massage that did nothing for six months.!!!. My gawd??? I didnt want to know who was treating her...They obviously didnt know what they were doing... I cant believe it...She is going to be well here real soon..Her problem is simple. Those people treating her in must live in some kind of fantasy world? Certainly not in reality.. So obviously easy... She had to quit because it was getting too expansive. She told me that she paid $55.00 for each massage...I keep saying it.....But this massage education system we got going better stop teaching for the tests..Cause this is the result.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on
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Success with my first client this afternoon.. She has been seeing a chiro for over one year... Because of low back pain...She had an 80min massage schedualled. She had two really sore TPs.. one on each side of her L5 on the spinal erectors...Did an L1 release on each side...And thats all it took... Easy wheezy Japaneasy... or something like that.Over in ten minutes.. She was freaked out.. No more pain....She will come in again on Sunday or Monday for a follow up. But her problem is history...Had one lady earlier today that I couldnt help...so Im back in the groove again... lol
Gary W Addis said:Gordon, I have benefited from your expertise...your 3+ decades of experience. Thank you for being so generous with your time.
Gordon J. Wallis said:Awesome Gary...My perspective...A skilled massage therapist has much more to offer...Much more...Heaps more. Of that,I have No Doubt.
Kay Warren said:Unfortunately, chiros are like every other profession on the face of the planet. You have the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. I'm sorry she got one of the Ugly ones. I've been seeing DCs for 30 years, and I've worked for 4 of them. I've seen the harm a bad or ugly DC can do. That being said, MDs kill over 300K people per year, more than 5x the number of civilians killed by guns. I'm sad to say this, but I have come to believe that approximately 30% of the people in any given profession (including my own) have no business practicing it. I've had a doc nearly kill me & 2 dentists cause me permanent damage. Using the right tool fofr the right job is very important, especially in medicine.
Gary W Addis said:An 82 year old woman neigbor and friend was sent to a chiro by her lawyer after an auto accident. The doctor hurt her even more. I offered to help her. She trusted me; I released TPs in about 10 minutes that caused her pain. But the next day at the chiro, the good doctor warned her that MT would make her problem worse. Two weeks--two full weeks-- she struggled to walk upright due to pain; doc's xrays purport to show disc problems. Finally the pain got bad enough she came back to me. Once again in less than half an hour, fully clothed, I released TPs in piriformis, QL, the little gemellus inferior, relaxed the ligaments between sacrum and illiac crest, and relaxed tightness in the joint itself. She called the chiro and told him to go do something nasty to himself.
This lady has become a big fan--she's sent the manager of a health food store and a hotel clerk to me. I am a student, can't charge yet, but I'm banking good will that hopefully will pay off after get my license in a few months. But even if it doesn't earn me any money, knowing that I have relieved pain is a good feeling
I don't suggest that all do this, but my friend's chiro appeared to be intentionally stretching her treatments out, maybe at the behest of the lawyer. My friend wasn't interested in lawsuits--she was hurting and needed relief.
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Kay Warren said:PTs rarely do TrP work. In some cases, they are downright hostile to it. Travell stated that all TrPs had to be clear for 2 weeks before PT begins. Most PT have squat for palpation skills, and are in a hurry to fit things into 15 minute segments since they were foolish (as a profession) enough to after insurance money, which then dictates how they practice. Hell, half the time they turn the actual work over to aides who have 4-6 hours total of massage training. It's a disgrace. PT has it's place, but they hate us. What I tell my clients is that in all of medicine, the challenge is to use the right tool for the right job. You don't see a podiatrist for brain surgery, and you don't see a PT for massage. Once everything is moving properly you see a PT to regain strength and hopefully balanced strength among opposing muscle systems. Some listen, some don't. I also tell them I don't do "Calgon, take me away!" massage. If you're broken and in pain, I'm your girl. While I can do a little relaxation work, it's not my thing, and I fully support them seeing someone else for their relaxation needs, and seeing me to take care of more serious things. The aches & pains that are a little more persistent. Most massage schools, especially ones attached to "career colleges" are a joke. They under so many "hour requirements" for different segments of education, that they have no time for palpation. It makes me sick.
That being said, I know too many therapists who don't want to anything but swedish and other relaxation techniques. they're not interested in solving mysteries, or expanding their skillset. While it frustrates me, what really hacks me off is when these lamebrains don't recognize that X is out of their league, and refer their client to someone like me who can actually take care help them. To me it's dishonest to continue to take someone's money when you have no realistic plan on how you can help them, no desire to anything to learn more about the condition and what you can do about it, and no willingness to refer them to someone who can. *getting off my soapbox*
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Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on
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Great stuff Gordon and Gary,
its so interesting hearing how your career is shaping up Gary well done.
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Permalink Reply by Jenny Lancey-Flammia on
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I agree with this very well said!
Julia Morrow said:Her therapist obviously had never studied TPs so it didn't occur to him/her to look for them. The therapist of course should have the training, but was just ignorant of that modality. Maybe you could get the name of the therapist and contact that person, and tell him/her that you really helped the client with TP therapy, and gently suggest where the therapist could get training. I'm sure the therapist would be relieved to hear that the client is better and grateful for your suggestion.
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Sadly there are schools that teach more than others, also depending on the state and the regulations required will determine also how or what a school with teach. I know the school I teach for loudly states not to work beyond your scope of practice to get the continuing education, most schools (again depending on area) teach the basic massage, (Swedish and dt) there are introductions to hot stone, pregnancy and so on however it is up to the individual to continue to educate them selves further to be able to work with more. and for some people they think they are handling certain matters in the proper way when they are not due to lack of education in which yes is sad, also some times, sadly people become lost in their ego. However, they had her for 6 months she has found you and your helping her so you’ll have her as a client permanently and she will refer you to others.
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Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on
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I was extremely lucky in the instructor I was assigned for NMT--I switched to night class to get into his class, those I started with 15 months ago didn't. I learned to work trigger points; sadly, they didn't. And I've had another benefit. You, Stephen and Daniel and Gordon are generous to me and anyone else who asks for advice. Then there's the expertise of CEU providers Myers, Allen, Benjamin, Luchau, Davies--too many to name. Actually, I've never met an LMT who doesn't eagerly share his knowledge without reservation.
Stephen Jeffrey said:Great stuff Gordon and Gary,
its so interesting hearing how your career is shaping up Gary well done.
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Pretty much the whole reason Im in here is to point out how effective massage therapy is compared to other types of health care providers. Gary already has helped people that others with doctor titles haven't been able to help. I know what I experience almost every day...I don't know about the rest of you guys..but the reason Im able to help so many people that other health care providers haven't been able to help, sometimes for years, is because I know trigger points. Out of the last five people that came to see me because of pain in their bodies, I was able to dramatically help four of them. They all were seeing other types of health care professionals.. It was all because of trigger points....Now I work in a spa...so I do a lot of spa massage work...Lots of clients with no particular problems other then a little sore between the shoulders...All I do is determine why they want to get a massage...If they say because they hurt somewhere..Its usually trigger points that other providers no nothing about.. Even the lady I couldn't help...the lady had a trigger point I couldn't get rid of.. Now that really bothers me, because Im getting pretty good at eliminating em.. She will come in next week...Im not even charging her... Because I want to learn... Its been a long time sense not being able to make a trigger point go away,or at least dissipate substantially. Gary check David Kents site out...I wouldn't mind getting some of his charts..They would be very good to show clients. Anyway today is a new day.. Im excited... I hope I find some trigger points...If I do...There is going to be one happy client....We have a High Art.
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Permalink Reply by rudy m smith on
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the bilateral problem in her arms is most likely a c5-c6 disk issue. if she hasn't been xrayed and had an MRI she should. good work always make sure to refer your clients to a proper doc for a proper diagnosis..
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Gordon - very well said!
Gordon J. Wallis said:Success with my first client this afternoon.. She has been seeing a chiro for over one year... Because of low back pain...She had an 80min massage schedualled. She had two really sore TPs.. one on each side of her L5 on the spinal erectors...Did an L1 release on each side...And thats all it took... Easy wheezy Japaneasy... or something like that.Over in ten minutes.. She was freaked out.. No more pain....She will come in again on Sunday or Monday for a follow up. But her problem is history...Had one lady earlier today that I couldnt help...so Im back in the groove again... lol
Gary W Addis said:Gordon, I have benefited from your expertise...your 3+ decades of experience. Thank you for being so generous with your time.
Gordon J. Wallis said:Awesome Gary...My perspective...A skilled massage therapist has much more to offer...Much more...Heaps more. Of that,I have No Doubt.
Kay Warren said:Unfortunately, chiros are like every other profession on the face of the planet. You have the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. I'm sorry she got one of the Ugly ones. I've been seeing DCs for 30 years, and I've worked for 4 of them. I've seen the harm a bad or ugly DC can do. That being said, MDs kill over 300K people per year, more than 5x the number of civilians killed by guns. I'm sad to say this, but I have come to believe that approximately 30% of the people in any given profession (including my own) have no business practicing it. I've had a doc nearly kill me & 2 dentists cause me permanent damage. Using the right tool fofr the right job is very important, especially in medicine.
Gary W Addis said:An 82 year old woman neigbor and friend was sent to a chiro by her lawyer after an auto accident. The doctor hurt her even more. I offered to help her. She trusted me; I released TPs in about 10 minutes that caused her pain. But the next day at the chiro, the good doctor warned her that MT would make her problem worse. Two weeks--two full weeks-- she struggled to walk upright due to pain; doc's xrays purport to show disc problems. Finally the pain got bad enough she came back to me. Once again in less than half an hour, fully clothed, I released TPs in piriformis, QL, the little gemellus inferior, relaxed the ligaments between sacrum and illiac crest, and relaxed tightness in the joint itself. She called the chiro and told him to go do something nasty to himself.
This lady has become a big fan--she's sent the manager of a health food store and a hotel clerk to me. I am a student, can't charge yet, but I'm banking good will that hopefully will pay off after get my license in a few months. But even if it doesn't earn me any money, knowing that I have relieved pain is a good feeling
I don't suggest that all do this, but my friend's chiro appeared to be intentionally stretching her treatments out, maybe at the behest of the lawyer. My friend wasn't interested in lawsuits--she was hurting and needed relief.
I
Kay Warren said:PTs rarely do TrP work. In some cases, they are downright hostile to it. Travell stated that all TrPs had to be clear for 2 weeks before PT begins. Most PT have squat for palpation skills, and are in a hurry to fit things into 15 minute segments since they were foolish (as a profession) enough to after insurance money, which then dictates how they practice. Hell, half the time they turn the actual work over to aides who have 4-6 hours total of massage training. It's a disgrace. PT has it's place, but they hate us. What I tell my clients is that in all of medicine, the challenge is to use the right tool for the right job. You don't see a podiatrist for brain surgery, and you don't see a PT for massage. Once everything is moving properly you see a PT to regain strength and hopefully balanced strength among opposing muscle systems. Some listen, some don't. I also tell them I don't do "Calgon, take me away!" massage. If you're broken and in pain, I'm your girl. While I can do a little relaxation work, it's not my thing, and I fully support them seeing someone else for their relaxation needs, and seeing me to take care of more serious things. The aches & pains that are a little more persistent. Most massage schools, especially ones attached to "career colleges" are a joke. They under so many "hour requirements" for different segments of education, that they have no time for palpation. It makes me sick.
That being said, I know too many therapists who don't want to anything but swedish and other relaxation techniques. they're not interested in solving mysteries, or expanding their skillset. While it frustrates me, what really hacks me off is when these lamebrains don't recognize that X is out of their league, and refer their client to someone like me who can actually take care help them. To me it's dishonest to continue to take someone's money when you have no realistic plan on how you can help them, no desire to anything to learn more about the condition and what you can do about it, and no willingness to refer them to someone who can. *getting off my soapbox*
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She had MRIs and checked out by a medical doctor for a cervical disc issue...The doctor refered her to physical therapy where she got the massages...She had Big Trigger Points on the muscle structures over her shoulder blades..Infraspinatus for one...on both shoulder blades.. they made her arms ache....after I eliminated them...all her presenting symptoms were gone. Once I found out she was cleared of any cervical disc issue... It was the first place I looked. Any kind of pain radiating down the arms or pain on or limited abduction.. Usually its TPs in those blade muscles. At least thats my experience. The trigger point charts clearly show those pain patterns.
rudy m smith said:the bilateral problem in her arms is most likely a c5-c6 disk issue. if she hasn't been xrayed and had an MRI she should. good work always make sure to refer your clients to a proper doc for a proper diagnosis..
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Gordon J. Wallis said:She had MRIs and checked out by a medical doctor for a cervical disc issue .She had no disc issues...The doctor refered her to physical therapy where she got the massages...She had Big Trigger Points on the muscle structures over her shoulder blades..Infraspinatus for one...on both shoulder blades.. they made her arms ache....after I eliminated them...all her presenting symptoms were gone. Once I found out she was cleared of any cervical disc issue... It was the first place I looked. Any kind of pain radiating down the arms or pain on or limited abduction.. Usually its TPs in those blade muscles. At least thats my experience. The trigger point charts clearly show those pain patterns.
rudy m smith said:the bilateral problem in her arms is most likely a c5-c6 disk issue. if she hasn't been xrayed and had an MRI she should. good work always make sure to refer your clients to a proper doc for a proper diagnosis..
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Everyone is conditioned to think nerve pain, or some sort of disc problem in a joint...The only time they think muscle pain is when they work out too much..Then all they think is lactic acid.. However 8 times out of 10 its trigger points. Worked on a lady the other day that told me her friend is schedualed for carpal tunnel surgery.. Her surgen told her that its possible the surgery wont work... That means they are operating on people that dont have true carpal tunnel...Carpal tunnel surgery will not eliminate trigger points in the forearms or neck or anywhere else. Just commenting before I go to work today... Yea I work Sundays...lol You guys have a great day!!!!!
Gordon J. Wallis said:
Gordon J. Wallis said:She had MRIs and checked out by a medical doctor for a cervical disc issue .She had no disc issues...The doctor refered her to physical therapy where she got the massages...She had Big Trigger Points on the muscle structures over her shoulder blades..Infraspinatus for one...on both shoulder blades.. they made her arms ache....after I eliminated them...all her presenting symptoms were gone. Once I found out she was cleared of any cervical disc issue... It was the first place I looked. Any kind of pain radiating down the arms or pain on or limited abduction.. Usually its TPs in those blade muscles. At least thats my experience. The trigger point charts clearly show those pain patterns.
rudy m smith said:the bilateral problem in her arms is most likely a c5-c6 disk issue. if she hasn't been xrayed and had an MRI she should. good work always make sure to refer your clients to a proper doc for a proper diagnosis..
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People dont really udnerstand the power of massage.. They really dont. I work in a spa that has 70 employees. Inbetween appointments I heard two of my coworkers talking... Aparently one of them has had a head ache neck ache for ten days...They were discussing weather she should see a chiropractor or MD.. I interupped them and said I should be able to fix that problem for you in a few minutes...I got a doubtful look...But convinced her too let me check her out in an hour when I had a little break in my schedual...Long story short ... Her pain was one sided....right shoulder up to the base of her skull on the right side... I palpated three active trigger points.. One in the rhomboids, one in her spinal errectors at T1 and another one in her upper trap. Twenty seconds on each trigger point and they were gone, along with her neck pain and head ache.. She was amazed... People think MDs or Chiropractors when they feel pain, if its not from exercise.... They are conditioned to think that way by our society... A good soft tissue worker has so much to offer the general public. If they only knew...Almost on a daily basis I work on people that have been seeing chiros, PTs , and MDs for weeks when all they need is a few minutes of trigger point work....Even massage therapists run to the MD or Chiropractor if they are hurt.....Lots of mis diagnosises too...lots....Like I said...its almost a daily occorence for me. You guys have a great day!!!
Gordon J. Wallis said:Everyone is conditioned to think nerve pain, or some sort of disc problem in a joint...The only time they think muscle pain is when they work out too much..Then all they think is lactic acid.. However 8 times out of 10 its trigger points. Worked on a lady the other day that told me her friend is schedualed for carpal tunnel surgery.. Her surgen told her that its possible the surgery wont work... That means they are operating on people that dont have true carpal tunnel...Carpal tunnel surgery will not eliminate trigger points in the forearms or neck or anywhere else. Just commenting before I go to work today... Yea I work Sundays...lol You guys have a great day!!!!!
Gordon J. Wallis said:
Gordon J. Wallis said:She had MRIs and checked out by a medical doctor for a cervical disc issue .She had no disc issues...The doctor refered her to physical therapy where she got the massages...She had Big Trigger Points on the muscle structures over her shoulder blades..Infraspinatus for one...on both shoulder blades.. they made her arms ache....after I eliminated them...all her presenting symptoms were gone. Once I found out she was cleared of any cervical disc issue... It was the first place I looked. Any kind of pain radiating down the arms or pain on or limited abduction.. Usually its TPs in those blade muscles. At least thats my experience. The trigger point charts clearly show those pain patterns.
rudy m smith said:the bilateral problem in her arms is most likely a c5-c6 disk issue. if she hasn't been xrayed and had an MRI she should. good work always make sure to refer your clients to a proper doc for a proper diagnosis..
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