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Just dumping
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on
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Well they don't have to come to us first. I'd prefer they didn't. They can come to us second...Their problem just needs to be properly recognized.
Therese Schwartz said:Gordon, it happens to me all the time - getting someone on the table who has come to me as a last resort instead of a first one. It certainly is frustrating!!
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Permalink Reply by Laura Allen on
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I appreciate you reading my book, Gordon. I know that we have ALL helped people when other means have failed. However, I will still maintain that it's not a good thing to disparage other professionals or claim to be better than them. As someone on this thread commented, Google is crawling 24/7 and these conversations are going to show up like everything else. If I were an MD and I saw an MT commenting about how incompetent doctors are and how we're better, I certainly would not send anyone to them.
I personally want to be considered part of the health care team, not the only member of it, and I don't have to be the member at the top. I just want massage therapy to have legitimate recognition and respect from the medical community. Slamming the medical community is not the way to achieve that.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on
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Hmmm wonder why the author has to take such a cheap shot at Clair Davies.(see below)
The most popular trigger point book for patients is still the Trigger Point Therapy Workbook, by Clair Davies. It has some qualities, but it’s also simplistic and out of date. It was never more than an introduction to the subject, and five long years of new scientific research have left it in the dust. And it will never be updated again: Mr. Davies died in 2006.
Many people have written to me over the years to tell me how the Workbook did not really do the trick for them, but this tutorial did. The Workbook’s qualities and limitations are reviewed more thoroughly below.
I'm disgusted the author should do this, as no one has done more to get triggerpoint therapy in a readable format to a public in chronic pain.
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http://saveyourself.ca/tutorials/trigger-points.php Real Change.
Laura I appreciate talking with you online here. You are one of the leaders in this industry. You want change and legitimate recognition by the medical community.. So do I. I really do. If you read the entire Just Dumping Thread. I may have been a bit crude in my approach, but you can tell I really do.... But I don't see any real fundamental changes going on now that will ever make that happen? Its pretty much the same relationship as it was 27 years ago when I first started working in this field.....The only changes have been within the system itself. No real change at all. At least from what I can see.. If you read the above link, That book....You can easily see that massage therapy is very very far from its maximum potential relationship to the medical community. Its obvious. The information in that book is real. And it's backed up by sound research and smart people. The man who wrote that is brilliant.. If the knowledge in that book were to form the core basic principles of a massage therapy education. Then Massage would finally get that legitimate recognition that it deserves. I mean what would happen if all of a sudden the number of carpal tunnel surgeries was cut in half? .. Then there would be an actual change, a real change... I don't see why that can't be?.. One massage therapist ranting online here isn't the problem. If one wants real change.
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Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on
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Good comment, Stephen. I too think Davies textbook is an excellent resource--without it, students would have to rely solely on the instructors expertise (or lack therof). I think Davies method of achieving release is wrong; I achieve quicker results using steady ischemic pressure--and my regular clients report that it is also less painful than Davies' series of lighter strokes.
Haven't read this complete tutorial, wonder whether it provides Davies-like illustrations of standard TPs w/ referral sites shown. I'd buy the book if I had $20 to spare. But not revealing on the first page that he is providing merely a taste for free is IMO wrong-- I realize that although I would have read the intro anyway, many potential customers would not have, however.
= Gary
Stephen Jeffrey said:Hmmm wonder why the author has to take such a cheap shot at Clair Davies.(see below)
The most popular trigger point book for patients is still the Trigger Point Therapy Workbook, by Clair Davies. It has some qualities, but it’s also simplistic and out of date. It was never more than an introduction to the subject, and five long years of new scientific research have left it in the dust. And it will never be updated again: Mr. Davies died in 2006.
Many people have written to me over the years to tell me how the Workbook did not really do the trick for them, but this tutorial did. The Workbook’s qualities and limitations are reviewed more thoroughly below.
I'm disgusted the author should do this, as no one has done more to get triggerpoint therapy in a readable format to a public in chronic pain.
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You guys. I dont see it as slamming Davies our anyone. He doesn't say that Davies book is lying.. He has just compiled more information that further validates the important s of trigger point removal. If Davies was alive.. He would of loved reading that book. He was a trigger point man.I loved both books.. That above book is good...If nothing else it points out the full potential of massage in a good way..If someone cant abduct their arm.. They should know that there is a very good possibility of a trigger point in the infraspinatus muscle. A lot of health care providers dont realized that. Despite any trigger point book out there. The above book is a really good validation, like others of how important trigger points are. And its still not truly realized. I worked on a client today thats been in the medical system for some time because she cant abduct her arm very far without pain. She told me know one looked for trigger points, but me.. Fist place i looked was for a trigger point..And I found it in the infraspinatus.. After a 25 massage she had a very noticeable increase in her pain free range of motion(trigger point work). She noticed it, and I noticed it. His main thing is not to put down any trigger point work.. But to further validate with good research.. Thats how I feel when I read it. I like Davies book too.. I dont know...Maybe my way of thinking in here is completely way off?..If Im the only one that thinks this way, then maybe it is? I just thought that link was pretty valid stuff.
Gary W Addis said:Good comment, Stephen. I too think Davies textbook is an excellent resource--without it, students would have to rely solely on the instructors expertise (or lack therof). I think Davies method of achieving release is wrong; I achieve quicker results using steady ischemic pressure--and my regular clients report that it is also less painful than Davies' series of lighter strokes.
Haven't read this complete tutorial, wonder whether it provides Davies-like illustrations of standard TPs w/ referral sites shown. I'd buy the book if I had $20 to spare. But not revealing on the first page that he is providing merely a taste for free is IMO wrong-- I realize that although I would have read the intro anyway, many potential customers would not have, however.
= Gary
Stephen Jeffrey said:Hmmm wonder why the author has to take such a cheap shot at Clair Davies.(see below)
The most popular trigger point book for patients is still the Trigger Point Therapy Workbook, by Clair Davies. It has some qualities, but it’s also simplistic and out of date. It was never more than an introduction to the subject, and five long years of new scientific research have left it in the dust. And it will never be updated again: Mr. Davies died in 2006.
Many people have written to me over the years to tell me how the Workbook did not really do the trick for them, but this tutorial did. The Workbook’s qualities and limitations are reviewed more thoroughly below.
I'm disgusted the author should do this, as no one has done more to get triggerpoint therapy in a readable format to a public in chronic pain.
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Laura, I like this site.. But if I'm out of line here in my thinking.. I will just shut up.. I thought I had some valid points to my Just Dumping thread? I thought that after 27 years of doing this kind of work, people might be interested in what I think? But maybe not?
Gordon J. Wallis said:http://saveyourself.ca/tutorials/trigger-points.php Real Change.
Laura I appreciate talking with you online here. You are one of the leaders in this industry. You want change and legitimate recognition by the medical community.. So do I. I really do. If you read the entire Just Dumping Thread. I may have been a bit crude in my approach, but you can tell I really do.... But I don't see any real fundamental changes going on now that will ever make that happen? Its pretty much the same relationship as it was 27 years ago when I first started working in this field.....The only changes have been within the system itself. No real change at all. At least from what I can see.. If you read the above link, That book....You can easily see that massage therapy is very very far from its maximum potential relationship to the medical community. Its obvious. The information in that book is real. And it's backed up by sound research and smart people. The man who wrote that is brilliant.. If the knowledge in that book were to form the core basic principles of a massage therapy education. Then Massage would finally get that legitimate recognition that it deserves. I mean what would happen if all of a sudden the number of carpal tunnel surgeries was cut in half? .. Then there would be an actual change, a real change... I don't see why that can't be?.. One massage therapist ranting online here isn't the problem. If one wants real change.
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Gordon, your input is much appreciated by everyone, including Laura I'm sure.
I comprehend Laura's point, that we don't want to antagonize other branches of the health care industry. But you and Daniel and Micah make the valid point--and it has been made in scads of books written by massage/bodywork therapists-- that MDs especially don't often reciprocate the respect we give them publicly.An unrelated comment: what if we surrendered the name "massage" to the sex shops, and began to promote the term "bodywork"? The prostitution industry sullied the noble, traditional names "masseuse and masseur", and now for every legitimate therapeutic massage clinic, there must be a couple dozen "massage parlors" that specialize in happy endings. Authorities are having a heckuva time trying to clean them out. Not seriously pushing this idea...just supposing for the sake of discussion.
Gordon J. Wallis said:Laura, I like this site.. But if I'm out of line here in my thinking.. I will just shut up.. I thought I had some valid points to my Just Dumping thread? I thought that after 27 years of doing this kind of work, people might be interested in what I think? But maybe not?
Gordon J. Wallis said:http://saveyourself.ca/tutorials/trigger-points.php Real Change.
Laura I appreciate talking with you online here. You are one of the leaders in this industry. You want change and legitimate recognition by the medical community.. So do I. I really do. If you read the entire Just Dumping Thread. I may have been a bit crude in my approach, but you can tell I really do.... But I don't see any real fundamental changes going on now that will ever make that happen? Its pretty much the same relationship as it was 27 years ago when I first started working in this field.....The only changes have been within the system itself. No real change at all. At least from what I can see.. If you read the above link, That book....You can easily see that massage therapy is very very far from its maximum potential relationship to the medical community. Its obvious. The information in that book is real. And it's backed up by sound research and smart people. The man who wrote that is brilliant.. If the knowledge in that book were to form the core basic principles of a massage therapy education. Then Massage would finally get that legitimate recognition that it deserves. I mean what would happen if all of a sudden the number of carpal tunnel surgeries was cut in half? .. Then there would be an actual change, a real change... I don't see why that can't be?.. One massage therapist ranting online here isn't the problem. If one wants real change.
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Permalink Reply by Micah Goodman on
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Just to clarify, I don't hate doctors and I don't think that they are all out to hurt the general public. Honestly, I think the real problem lies not with the majority of practicing doctors but with the schools they attend. Their is an incestuousness relationship between medical education and the pharmaceutical industry. I know I sound like one of those moon landing conspiracy nuts but think about it Dr. Travel's work has been in published form for about 15 years and I bet if you took a survey of Doctor's who are recent grads, who have read the book, you would find a very small number have done so.
But then you might say, the books have only been out for a relatively short time. OK, then what about Dr. John Harvey Kellogg advocated the benefits of massage over 100 years ago and Aristotle advocated palpation of patients over 1000 years ago. How many time have you been to a doctor for an exam or illness and they don't touch you once during the entire exam? The Emperor has no clothes and I think Gordon is right to call people out on that fact. I hope my name is Googled in the future and my comments on this subject come up. We shouldn't ever be afraid to speak about what we are passionate about.
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Dr. Travell's work was first published 30 years ago, not 15.And in reality I'm sure she was publishing long before that. She took care of President Kennedy.
The doctors who refer to me respect me. I can only speak for myself, because I don't know how they treat you.
As anyone who reads my blog knows, I am certainly not afraid to speak my mind--and that includes here. I'm going to bow out and let you folks continue this discussion to your heart's content. I am not going to argue the merits of holding yourself out to be better than anyone else, because it has no merit. Carry on.
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Hi Gordon
Your posts always interest me, because we share a common interest = resolving chronic pain via the specific use of triggerpoint therapy. Any content you offer that details progression of this therapy I welcome whole heartedly.
However, the author of that article will not be getting my $19.95 ..........no way .....I find leapfrogging tomb stones too distastefull.
As for google finding this comment..... lets hope its Paul that finds it :)
Gordon J. Wallis said:You guys. I dont see it as slamming Davies our anyone. He doesn't say that Davies book is lying.. He has just compiled more information that further validates the important s of trigger point removal. If Davies was alive.. He would of loved reading that book. He was a trigger point man.I loved both books.. That above book is good...If nothing else it points out the full potential of massage in a good way..If someone cant abduct their arm.. They should know that there is a very good possibility of a trigger point in the infraspinatus muscle. A lot of health care providers dont realized that. Despite any trigger point book out there. The above book is a really good validation, like others of how important trigger points are. And its still not truly realized. I worked on a client today thats been in the medical system for some time because she cant abduct her arm very far without pain. She told me know one looked for trigger points, but me.. Fist place i looked was for a trigger point..And I found it in the infraspinatus.. After a 25 massage she had a very noticeable increase in her pain free range of motion(trigger point work). She noticed it, and I noticed it. His main thing is not to put down any trigger point work.. But to further validate with good research.. Thats how I feel when I read it. I like Davies book too.. I dont know...Maybe my way of thinking in here is completely way off?..If Im the only one that thinks this way, then maybe it is? I just thought that link was pretty valid stuff.
Gary W Addis said:Good comment, Stephen. I too think Davies textbook is an excellent resource--without it, students would have to rely solely on the instructors expertise (or lack therof). I think Davies method of achieving release is wrong; I achieve quicker results using steady ischemic pressure--and my regular clients report that it is also less painful than Davies' series of lighter strokes.
Haven't read this complete tutorial, wonder whether it provides Davies-like illustrations of standard TPs w/ referral sites shown. I'd buy the book if I had $20 to spare. But not revealing on the first page that he is providing merely a taste for free is IMO wrong-- I realize that although I would have read the intro anyway, many potential customers would not have, however.
= Gary
Stephen Jeffrey said:Hmmm wonder why the author has to take such a cheap shot at Clair Davies.(see below)
The most popular trigger point book for patients is still the Trigger Point Therapy Workbook, by Clair Davies. It has some qualities, but it’s also simplistic and out of date. It was never more than an introduction to the subject, and five long years of new scientific research have left it in the dust. And it will never be updated again: Mr. Davies died in 2006.
Many people have written to me over the years to tell me how the Workbook did not really do the trick for them, but this tutorial did. The Workbook’s qualities and limitations are reviewed more thoroughly below.
I'm disgusted the author should do this, as no one has done more to get triggerpoint therapy in a readable format to a public in chronic pain.
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When I said that I was better then anyone else.. I said that to draw attention to the situation..I knew it would.. You could exchange my name with a lot of other massage therapists names. Doesn't matter. Still the same. That's the point I'm making.. To draw attention.. Because dispite all this time, there is an awful lot of people getting inappropriate treatments because massage is simply not viewed as an adiquit therapy by a lot of other 1st teir health care providers. That's all. That book I linked points that out, and the reasons why... I mean I had a lady the other day that has been treated by other types of health care providers for some time..because she cant abduct her arm.. She had a real sore spot on her infraspinatus.. When I first touched it she made it known verbally that it really hurt..She about jumped off the table...I asked her if anyone palpated her shoulder.. She said no?? This is not about how good I am.. And I know there are doctors that work well with massage therapists.. Im not denying that. And there are of course good doctors out there.. I'm mean the trigger point work I do is based on medical research done by medical doctors.. I have doctor clients.. But despite all that...There are still huge amounts of patients getting the wrong kind of care..Because massage is still not recognized f correctly, by a lot of health care providers..I mean the kid that I saw a few weeks back...I wrote about him. Had a sore shoulder. He had been seeing a 1st tier provider three times a week for a month .. And had two more weeks on his treatment plan . His gfriend bought him a massage.. I found a big trigger point in his rhomboids..Actually right where he pointed.. Nobody palpated him there? Give me a break. Less then a half hour work, and his problem was gone..Its not about how good I am.. I'm not suggesting that anyone should see a massage therapist first when they have pain in their body.. They should go to a 1st tier provider to rule out anything mean and nasty....And a massage therapist second, when its the most appropriate therapy.. And for structural problems, it pretty much is. That's all. Anyway, I'm getting tired of talking about it...I rather read and play my video games now.
Laura Allen said:Dr. Travell's work was first published 30 years ago, not 15.And in reality I'm sure she was publishing long before that. She took care of President Kennedy.
The doctors who refer to me respect me. I can only speak for myself, because I don't know how they treat you.
As anyone who reads my blog knows, I am certainly not afraid to speak my mind--and that includes here. I'm going to bow out and let you folks continue this discussion to your heart's content. I am not going to argue the merits of holding yourself out to be better than anyone else, because it has no merit. Carry on.
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